Curse

jackie · Jan 29, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Bad argument. People can ironman every game using starter armor and starter weapons. As such, there needs to be no improvement to armor or weapons besides those.

No. Argument is based on the news flash that one doesn't lose crucial PvE element if s(he) doesn't get Razah and that's why there is no harm to have him locked behind 4 Gemstones. He is there for those who like to achieve something in this game, even if that is a normal Ritualist hero. ANet can't put superior, unbalanced aspects into the game as rewards, that kind of thing works only in WoW/EQ style of games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

I don't think thousands have played DoA because...it sucks. On the "buy those gems", ANet once released how much gold people have on their account. The majority had less than 25k. I suppose it's gone up since then, but the majority is still too poor to buy this Hero, let alone for all their characters. If he was only a vanity item like 15k armor or Crystaline Swords, I'd agree that people should grind/work for him. However, a Hero is not a weapon or a piece of armor.

Yet there are districts full of people (check how many districts on prime times) playing DoA and build conversations on forums et cetera. Because you think DoA is bad doesn't mean it's a general opinion of Guild Wars community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

That "skill over time spent" line on the boxes...

If we start quoting fundamentally that particular line, we could start asking if there is any point to have anything at all in this game that is grindable. Skill over time spent = smarter you are in game, easier you achieve your goals. DoA takes 2-3h/ea instances with a decent group.

Like I said before, everything is not just 'round the corner.

pigdestroyer · Jan 29, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

/notsigned

doa quests are very doable

NeHoMaR · Jan 29, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Well, considering it only takes 1 of each gemstone right? Can't you just buy them? I mean it's under 100k now or near that for all 4.

100k for Razah?

What "special" Razah has? It's just a Ritualist, a hero that should originally added with Nightfall release with a plain and simple (and FREE) quest like the Assassin one.

SirJackassIII · Jan 29, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

No. Argument is based on the news flash that one doesn't lose crucial PvE element if s(he) doesn't get Razah and that's why there is no harm to have him locked behind 4 Gemstones. He is there for those who like to achieve something in this game, even if that is a normal Ritualist hero. ANet can't put superior, unbalanced aspects into the game as rewards, that kind of thing works only in WoW/EQ style of games.

Neither does one need max damage weapons, max mods, max armor or anything really to beat the game. However, Razah does give an advantage in gameplay -albeit a small one. Spawning Power may be a crap primary, it has a few nice skills that can benefit certain builds other classes can't have.

Quote:

Yet there are districts full of people (check how many districts on prime times) playing DoA and build conversations on forums et cetera. Because you think DoA is bad doesn't mean it's a general opinion of Guild Wars community.

The amount of districts is very few, even in Prime. Build conversations mostly consist of "How can we clear a large chunk with as few as possible to max profit". Most players don't even bother with DoA.

Quote:

If we start quoting fundamentally that particular line, we could start asking if there is any point to have anything at all in this game that is grindable. Skill over time spent = smarter you are in game, easier you achieve your goals. DoA takes 2-3h/ea instances with a decent group.

Like I said before, everything is not just 'round the corner.

Grindable stuff: yes if it gives absolutely no advantage at all. FoW lost the only small advantage it had of not showing what armor type the user had a long time ago. Different types of Swords don't offer anything at all. 15k sets are barely a luxury item anymore.

If Razah were to give absolutely NO advantage, for example there being another Rit Hero with a different quest, then yes, by all means, let Razah stay in the DoA with the Gemstone req. Let him rot there for all I care. Point being, if Anet wants to keep their precious balance in check, they need to get Razah out of there.

Thallandor · Jan 29, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

<----Dont really care much about Razah anymore. Hence i would vote no just for the opposition.

_________________________
Sometimes its best to say No to get what you want.

jackie · Jan 29, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

The amount of districts is very few, even in Prime. Build conversations mostly consist of "How can we clear a large chunk with as few as possible to max profit". Most players don't even bother with DoA.

If Razah were to give absolutely NO advantage, for example there being another Rit Hero with a different quest, then yes, by all means, let Razah stay in the DoA with the Gemstone req. Let him rot there for all I care. Point being, if Anet wants to keep their precious balance in check, they need to get Razah out of there.

On last weekend there was approx. 2 english districts, 2-3 german districts, 2~ french, italian, spanish district in prime time. That's quite a bit, not perhaps as much as in ToA equivalents mainly due ecto/shard farming.

If you think it through, getting Razah is not nearly as hard as these complain threads are implying. Advantages of having Razah are close to zero thanks to the wonderful game mechanic that lets one change second professions granted that spawning power isn't available then.

One doesn't have to play 100h+ to get Razah. Only 12h~ all together 2-3h/evening if wanted - assuming that only gems come from end chests and not from mobs at all, there are also solo builds to farm those gems if questing in DoA isn't fun.

Is that really too much of a challenge in an online roleplaying game...

gavin456 · Jan 29, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

""/notsigned

doa quests are very doable ""

Yes Doa Quest are indeed doable, but are also very time consuming. for non hardcore player gettin into party and doin the quests takes well over 2hours if not 3.

SirJackassIII · Jan 29, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

If you think it through, getting Razah is not nearly as hard as these complain threads are implying. Advantages of having Razah are close to zero thanks to the wonderful game mechanic that lets one change second professions granted that spawning power isn't available then.

Yes, and because there is no difference between 12 and 16 in an attribute as well...Koss makes an EXCELLENT nuker BTW. 12 Spawning +16 Communing Shelter/Union vs 12 Communing 0 Spawning Shelter/Union is a big difference. Attuned was Songkai is also an excellent skill for Energy management. Boon/Explosive Groth/Spirit Gift combined with secondary Necro for Minion bombing is also largely dependant on Spawning.

Quote:

One doesn't have to play 100h+ to get Razah. Only 12h~ all together 2-3h/evening if wanted - assuming that only gems come from end chests and not from mobs at all, there are also solo builds to farm those gems if questing in DoA isn't fun.

Is that really too much of a challenge in an online roleplaying game...

You missed some:
- Time to form a group
- time it takes to get accepted in a group
- time to get accepted in a group as a non-Shadow Form Sin, Mesmer, Dervish or Paragon.
- time before everyone agrees on builds
- chance of failure with that group (if PUG, then loads)
- time needed for some to go to the bathroom
- sec, phone

And, probably the biggest consumer of time, multiply everything by the amount of characters you have.

Yes, absolutely no grind required for this gameplayadvantage offering Hero.

Cebe · Jan 29, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

/signed.

Some people would like the complete collection. One of those people is me. My band of heroes feels incomplete without Razah. For people who want to be leet isn't Tormented Weapons enough? I'd kill for a Tormented Staff but that's a loooong way off. Perhaps just removing the Gem requirement would make gaining Razah a little more fair. I have no problem doing a quest to get him, or waiting until the end of the game for the privalege.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavin456

doa quests are very doable

If they're THAT doable then why aren't Gems ten-a-penny?

draxynnic · Jan 29, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

From what I've heard, the quest itself is relatively easy for a DoA quest. Certainly anticlimatic if you earned the gems the hard way rather than buying them.

I've already gone through my arguments in a previous thread, but if people are counting, I'm in the 'make it easier to get a Rit hero' camp, either by making a new hero (albeit not necassarily through currently available chapters - I'd be happy with one showing up in Chapter 4) or by making Razah himself easier to get - albeit preferably in some way that compensates the people who did pay the price (one suggestion I liked was to give every character a one-off gift of four gems on reaching Anguish - call it a free sample - which most players would presumably use for Razah, but those who have Razah can use for whatever else they want).

Cebe · Jan 29, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I've already gone through my arguments in a previous thread, but if people are counting, I'm in the 'make it easier to get a Rit hero' camp, either by making a new hero (albeit not necassarily through currently available chapters - I'd be happy with one showing up in Chapter 4) or by making Razah himself easier to get - albeit preferably in some way that compensates the people who did pay the price (one suggestion I liked was to give every character a one-off gift of four gems on reaching Anguish - call it a free sample - which most players would presumably use for Razah, but those who have Razah can use for whatever else they want).

/signed

/signed

/signed again.

Sir Mad · Jan 29, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

On last weekend there was approx. 2 english districts, 2-3 german districts, 2~ french, italian, spanish district in prime time. That's quite a bit, not perhaps as much as in ToA equivalents mainly due ecto/shard farming.

If you think it through, getting Razah is not nearly as hard as these complain threads are implying. Advantages of having Razah are close to zero thanks to the wonderful game mechanic that lets one change second professions granted that spawning power isn't available then.

One doesn't have to play 100h+ to get Razah. Only 12h~ all together 2-3h/evening if wanted - assuming that only gems come from end chests and not from mobs at all, there are also solo builds to farm those gems if questing in DoA isn't fun.

Is that really too much of a challenge in an online roleplaying game...

Yeah but they do come from mobs as well

I don't have Razah. I went to DoA only 4 times (if you except the pathetic attempts the day it was implanted). The 2 first times the team got wipped out in a few minutes. The 2 other times I spent 1-2 hours there. I didn't do any quest. Yet I got 2 gems from killing mobs. If the gems drop as much in the other areas of Torment, getting Razah is easy even for casual players, provided they want to spend a few hours in DoA and try to get him. And no I'm not talking about spending 6 hours there to do a quest, since you don't need to complete them to get him. I'm just talking about 1 or 2 hours trips to Torment.

creelie · Jan 29, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I tried DoA a few times, but without a guild it's one of the most frustrating and depressing experiences ever. So I played Factions for a few days, liquidated the assets from that, and bought the gems outright. Easy-peasy.

If Anet were to make an even easier way to get a ritualist hero, I would definitely want some kind of compensation - draxynnic's idea is a good one.

As for Mallyx and the rest of DoA, you know what? Let them be. It's good to have Mount Everests in a game, especially when they're in an out-of-the-way place. Before Factions and then NF came out, the only things keeping me going were the titan quests and Sorrow's Furnace.

Jetdoc · Jan 29, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

/not signed. You simply need to play the game to get this endgame reward.

xxSilhouette · Jan 29, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I do think its cool that there is a hero there that is hard to get, beacuse its always nice to have something that requires work to get it. But I agree with you, beacuse I haven't gotten him yet myself, and i don't have the time nor the patience to get together a group that could screw it up (I get angry with other players easily...)

/signed
But i think he should stay where he is, I just think a quest would be better than the gemstones.

ca_aok · Jan 29, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

This is an easy fix. Remove the hero reqs for all missions, and move all the quests to get the other heros to DoA.

I lol'd.

Razah is a grind, plain and simple... however, there's no reason to take that goal out of the game... it's something to work towards in the end.

The easiest solution is to farm and then buy the gems... 100K should take you about a week to make (faster if you have money to powertrade), and the gems cost ~100K for all of them now. Hell, bring a monk through NF and titan gem farm, get two of those, sell one for the other 3 gems, there's razah for 2-3 hours of work.

XvArchonvX · Jan 29, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

/signed for getting him without visiting an highend area where casual players can't survive. It MUST be possible to get him with npc/heroes only.

I don't mind really that you have to work for him, but I do mind that not ever profession really performs down in DoA equally and it makes it incredibly hard to get this hero for characters of certain professions. Also, I have played GW for a long time, done lotsa stuff, farmed just about every high end area to death, but never really done too much DoA for the simple fact that it takes a big dedication in terms of time period to get through most stuff in DoA. I don't mind the challenge, but I can't often dedicate consecutive number of hours that is needed for most of the areas. This has never been an obstruction from any of my goals before in GW, but it has hindered me from much of what lies in DoA.

Perhaps one of the biggest problem of putting Raza in DoA is that the standard of allowing casual players to be able to get equipped with everything that the hardcore players have, but with with less fancy designs (i.e. collector weapons and armor compared to FoW armor and gold crystallines) has been a bit broken here. Hardcore players get a rit hero and the casual players don't. While I don't think this makes much of a difference since it's only a rit, a good compromise would be to put a less flashy rit hero somewhere else in the game so that the players that work for Raza still get the status symbol showing that they went through the trouble to get to him, but other players are still allowed the same functionality from their heroes. Either that or put another rit hero somewhere in the game and make Raza a character that can play any profession.

zwei2stein · Jan 29, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

/not signed. You simply need to play the game to get this endgame reward.

One would think that really playing game (you know, all missions, etc) was enough ...

Hell, as long as there is no Rt hero option, it should be enough.

---

I would like to remind everyone that we have incoming massive Rt buffs that improve this profession enough that not having Rt hero and wanting him will no longer be matter of principle but plain disadvatage.

Wondering what reaction of people would have been if elite hero was only monk, only ele or only necro in game... new and improved Rt can be just as important.

Saphatorael · Jan 29, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

/not signed. You simply need to play the game to get this endgame reward.

But I have. Completed Prophecies 4 times, almost a fifth (deleted a ranger at RoF), completed Factions 4 times, Nightfall 3 times (and my assassin is at Gate of Madness, haven't bothered to give it a try yet)...

I bought the game, and one of GW's main appealing points is its accessability.

Spending 3-5 hours on one quest is just a little too much for me.
I've never cleared UW or FoW due to time shortage, yet I still managed to farm some materials at times to eventually get FoW for my mesmer.
But this time, it's a hero. A unique hero, even, since there aren't any other Rits in the game!

I didn't pay 55 euro's (not counting the other 2 CE's) to always see something I'll never be able to get (sure, I can farm the crapload of gold needed, but that won't help me finish the required quest, thus making the effort futile unless I actually do spend 3-5 hours, which I can't.), and besides... I don't play the game to get rich, I play it for fun, and for the sake of having a bit of everything.
Razah is just too... separated from the mainstream players, with his high cost and (presumably) tough quest.

I'm not opting to make the DoA easier, I just want to lose that feeling that I'm not getting all the possible value for the price I paid.

It's like buying a FPS game, and you can obtain all weapons except a special, über-rocket launcher of some sort; even though you see other players use it (and crush you with it) in multiplayer.

Faer · Jan 29, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10084824